Posts by Juan Viejo2

40

This probably sounds uppity. I'm saying it anyhow

by stillin in

jw
friends

has anybody else noticed a pattern that is here among us outcasts?

there seems to be, on average, a higher level of intelligence here than there is at the kingdom hall.

actually, intelligent conversation seems to be looked down upon among the witnesses.. also, the simple language skills found here seem to be above average compared to those among the witnesses.

Juan Viejo2

Dozy wrote:

"I was a JW for 40 years and knew numerous JWs but I never met anyone who could be regarded as really intelligent. I'm sure there are some out there, but I never came across one. Being a JW kind of chokes off any intellectual curiosity and thirst for knowledge which is essential to keep on growing and people, even if well educated initially (albeit pretty unusual with JWs ), tend to stagnate at best, or regress."

Dozy got it right.

I was fortunate to meet several very intelligent JWs of both genders. They all had one thing in common: The ability to express their disagreements with Watchtower literature - or the wit and wisdom of local and traveling elders - without going over the line and actually trying to engage the consent or participation of others. What they said was, more or less, "in passing."

But I learned a lot from those JWs and what they did accomplish was to make me rethink my participation and dedication to a very errant and defective religious clan.

And that's what we were: a "clan." It was always "us JWs" versus [the rest of the world] [Satan] [false religion] [evil ones] [politicians] [Catholic Church] [apostates] [you pick one].

For many, it was truly a fight to the death. As soon as they got into that "sweet spot" of being "dedicated to Jehovah's service," then all other facts, new scientific knowledge, world news, and changing political positions were tools used by Satan to "weaken our faith." We were dedicated to resisting anything and anyone that MIGHT weaken our faith.

That's why our "clan" would only listen to others in the clan. Everything and everyone else was suspect, but the old sister in the backseat who rambled on about how "Satan was tempting us" and "placing roadblocks in our way at every opportunity" was accepted as someone "mature" and "in the know."

Being "dedicated to Jehovah's work" was a sign that a person held in some higher regard and rank by God and should therefore be given every opportunity to express their opinion - while our opinion was mostly worthless and suspect.

During my nearly 20 years of association with Jehovah's Witnesses, I probably met less than two dozen JWs of any rank or level of participation that I really considered intelligent and credible. Two of them did what they had to do, but limited their participation as much as possible. One other was a former Bethelite who was clearly "tainted" by his personal experiences while serving at WT HQ.

What I did realize as I aged into the "maturity" of my 20s was that the levels of real intelligence and knowledge was quite low among my JW peers. Few were truly credible. Some were clearly hypocrites and posers. Some were totally ignorant of even basic knowledge.

I came from an era when television sets and movie theaters were "sources of sin and designed by the Devil to waste our time." Once - while sitting in a car with a couple of older JWs (I was about 10 or 11) - I mentioned that I watched "Victory at Sea" (a famed documentary series about World War 2) on our 12-inch black and white TV that my father had recently purchased for $125. You would have thought that I had admitted to watching the vilest of porn - not something historic and informing.

So I understand the alarming level of overall ignorance of Jehovah's Witnesses. Stupid and ignorant people will tend to accept stupid and ignorant mis-information from others of their clan, passing it on to others, and therefore growing and spreading their ignorance. That's why gossip (some really nasty and unwarranted) was popular among JW sisters of my time - especially spouses of "servants" [we did not call them "elders" in those days].

God! I really miss those halcyon days of obscene ignorance and hypocrisy. But those qualities are still very much appreciated by modern JWs and their leadership.

JV

9

Watchtower practice of shunning relatives -- when did it begin?

by FatFreek 2005 in

the oldest reference i can find is 2012, as follows:.

"think of that if you are ever tempted to violate god’s command not to associate with your disfellowshipped relatives.

" the watchtower 2012, 4/15/ p. 12 par.

Juan Viejo2

My family first connected with JWs in 1951. At that time, my understanding was that Disfellowshipping was an active belief and policy but rarely used. I mean - if you killed someone - yes, you would be tossed out and shunned. Most often it was applied to sexual indiscretions if you got caught or confessed to that type of sin.

It wasn't until the late 1950s and early 1960s that there was an increase in the application of DF and shunning. In fact, being put on a review status was far more applicable. That type of thing would apply to observed drunkenness (but not excessive private drinking or alcoholism - a common situation in those days).One brother would slur his words while doing the opening or closing prayer, but no one ever said anything although his secret was common knowledge. Smoking could get you DF'd, but not in all congregations - and rarely if you promised to stop. (A lot of the older brothers would "stop" or claim to not smoke - but you could still smell it all over their clothes or on their breath.)

That was really what it was all about: Some congregations were run by hardnosed "Company Servants" (later, Congregation Servants and then Elders) who jumped on anything that was not inline with JW rules. Others would counsel and encourage and try to get the offenders to change their ways - more like counseling. Sexual indiscretions were dealt with more harshly than other offenses.

But in the mid to late 1960s after the 1975 predictions began to be promoted, all the love was tossed and most congregations took a harder approach to almost everything. Missing meetings, no field service, etc. soon became DF offenses. Sexual offenses were more often dealt with most harshly and the offender's reputations were trashed heavily within the congregations. Alcoholism and drunkenness was a common problem in many congregations. But as long as the "brother with a problem" did not get arrested or beat up his wife, not much was done. In my congregation half of the brothers over 30 had drinking problems and the same was true for the sisters.

You could not be gay unless you were a female. Sisters "living together" who were not siblings were often known to be "lesbos." Although you could tell who some of them were, as long as they did not wear pants to the Kingdom Hall - everything else was off the table. So most congregations had one or two pairs of unrelated "sisters" who lived together "in order to share costs and for companionship." The worst thing for them was the constant gossip and the fact that other women in the congregation would not get too close to them during meetings or service.

In the congregation that I attended there was one suspected gay brother who lived with and took care of his elderly mother. He was quite good looking so all of the sisters were always hitting on him or trying to pair him up. He was very cordial about all of that, but he made it clear that he was responsible for the care of his mother and would have to wait until she passed before he could consider marriage. That did not stop one sister from accusing him of influencing her teenage son (who everyone suspected to be gay from the time he was ten years old.) Nothing was resolved as the servants (my father was one of them) did not want to open that can of worms - not to mention that the older brother was the only pianist available to play Kingdom Songs at the meetings.

But all of that made for good gossip shared by the older sisters on service days. I heard all the rumors and accusations as we rode around the territories. The gossip was far more damaging to the congregation than any suspected private sex between consenting JWs, but not one person male or female was ever called out for spreading rumors - mostly because all of the older sisters and a fair number of "older brothers" would have been in deep trouble.

Ah, I miss the 1950s and 60s. Those were the "good old days."

JV

21

Watchtower Cult Given $81,000 by City of Salem

by rrb2016 in

can you imagine how much money they must make off of all the assemblies?

i counted at least 211 between this week and end of the year.

if they get paid by each city.... .

Juan Viejo2

Decided to add this announcement to the end of this old thread for the benefit of anyone living in or near the SALEM, OREGON area. If you are interested, message me here and I will get back to you with pertinent information and directions as to where a local meeting will be held on Sunday February 25, 2018 and other dates in subsequent months.

Thanks to recent events in Portland, Oregon over the past few weeks, there has been rising interest in establishing a support group for former JWs, unhappy JWs (of which the Salem area has more than its share), and anyone just looking for more information about the Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses, and for those looking for a way out of our favorite cult.

Above all we want you to know that this group has been formed to provide positive support and non-medical related counsel to those who feel they need more information or personal assistance because they have JWs in their family, are JWs looking for facts and answers, or current JWs trying to find a possible way out - and also for those who just want to get a cup of coffee and "chew the fat" with some people who not only care about JWs and their families, but have positive attitudes and a real desire to help.

Let me know if you are interested in attending future events or just want additional information. We are also interested in connecting with and teaming up with other likeminded individuals and groups in Oregon and other states.

I'm sorry that I did not have time to announce this sooner, but it literally came together almost overnight. There will be opportunities in the near future for anyone in the area to participate. Again, just message me and I will provide more specific information.

The key word in the above announcement is "positive."

I apologize in advance if I have bent any of the forum rules.

Juan Viejo2

10

Calling All Watchtower Historians ... What was the V.F.V.?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

in the may 27, 1942 edition of the consolation, the watchtower society devoted several pages to the controversy surrounding the burial of joseph rutherford.

in several sections, they write about "the opposition" in vague terms without much specificity as to who these other groups of people were who were supposedly persecuting them.

one section refers to a group called v.f.v.

Juan Viejo2

I remember while going door-to-door with my father in the mid-1950s encountering a householder who threatened to beat us up and call the police. "I'm a veteran of WW2 and a proud member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars."

My father looked at him and replied, "Well that's good. Where did you serve?"

"The Pacific in the United States Army!"

Dad calmly replied, "Well thank you for your service to our country."

"You Jehovah's Witnesses are all communists and cowards and you deserve to have your ass kicked!"

Dad looked at him and responded. "Well, if you want to kick my butt, feel free to try. But you should know that I too served in the US Army and also in Hawaii. I did not actually go to battle as I was an airplane mechanic. But that was better for me as I never wanted to kill anyone - friend or foe. Now if you still want to come down those stairs and kick my butt for trespassing or disrupting your morning, feel free to try. But accusing me of not serving in the Army isn't a good reason. However, you should know that I would never volunteer again, because Jehovah teaches us not to raise our hand against anyone, friend or foe."

The man behind the screen suddenly came out and looked my father right in the eye. "I apologize sir. While I want nothing to do with your religion, I would like to shake your hand as a fellow veteran." They shook hands and even gave each other a man-hug after that.

My father actually regretted what happened. He was afraid that Jehovah might consider his response to be "bragging about my military service."

But yeah - back in the late 1940s and early 1950s JW men took a lot of flak from veterans and families who had lost someone during the war. We kind of expected it and tried to understand where they were coming from.

JV

10

Calling All Watchtower Historians ... What was the V.F.V.?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

in the may 27, 1942 edition of the consolation, the watchtower society devoted several pages to the controversy surrounding the burial of joseph rutherford.

in several sections, they write about "the opposition" in vague terms without much specificity as to who these other groups of people were who were supposedly persecuting them.

one section refers to a group called v.f.v.

Juan Viejo2

Yes, the VFW has been a critic of all things Watchtower since they were formed. Here is one incident during the WW2 years:

"https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1107117313

David T. Smith - 2015 - ‎Political Science

54 In Guymon, Oklahoma, in August 1940, a crowd of 1,000 gathered outside a courthouse where six Jehovah's Witnesses entered pleas on charges of violating an anti-peddling ordinance that had been passed a few weeks earlier at the instigation of a local Legion and VFW member. After all six pleaded not guilty a local ... "

52

Have you ever gone back to a meeting out of curiosity?

by stuckinarut2 in

just wondering if anyone has gone back to a meeting out of curiosity?

(perhaps to an area far from your old khall where you know no one).

with all the changes from 2012 onwards (videos, tv screens, new meeting format, new songs etc) it would be an odd experience to be in attendance!.

Juan Viejo2

Dead-ringer for JW Facts. Good looking fellow with a good heart and an excellent head on his shoulders.

29

Has Watchtower taken the joy out of 'the good news of the kingdom'

by UnshackleTheChains in

i ask this question for the following reason.

i was sitting at the kingdom hall thinking about all the rules, procedures, policies, teachings that each member must follow ......or else!.

at the watchtower study we are reminded of the paradise earth where we will all be the same and happy.

Juan Viejo2

Athanasius is quite right about the 1950s and 60s for Jehovah's Witnesses. The biggest downer was that young brothers just getting out of high school still faced the possibility of being drafted and by refusing, likely to go to prison. We had one brother that spent 3 years in federal prison (messed him up some, too) and another young man in his early 20s (and a recent JW convert) who did go to prison for 18 months around 1960. I sweated a few bullets over that at the time, but getting married and having a baby daughter, bad knees, and being color blind got me through it unscathed.

But going to meetings and even out in the door to door service was kinda fun and a chance to mix with a lot of people of various ages. Going to conventions for a teenager was great fun and I met a lot of new friends and cute girls while roaming the hallways.

But the mid-1960s saw a major change in attitudes. Everything started feeling uncomfortable. In 1966 the idea of Armageddon coming in the mid-1970s was just hitting the ground. Rules became stricter. Public talks began to move from being self-prepared from an outline to being delivered from a rigid script that allowed very little modification by speakers. So we heard the same 8-10 talks nearly word for word about three times a year. For young people teens and up - who and how you dated them suddenly became more restrictive. I met my first wife in high school and dated her for well over a year before we got engaged. I never tried to change her from being a Catholic - and she didn't mind being around Jehovah's Witnesses - so she came to meetings and also went out with me in service while she was unbaptized. Yes, she was encouraged by my parents and the congregation members to consider becoming a JW, but I felt no pressure by my parents or JW friends to break up with my fiance or restrict who I married. Of course, all of that also changed in the 1960s. So my wife became one - and I soon "unbecame" one.

Everyone was being encouraged to "go where the need was greater." Our congregation saw several families (including my parents and siblings) sell their homes and move to remote cities in the midwest (USA) and southeast states like Mississippi and South Carolina. My parents moved to Nebraska and then later to Arkansas. They saw their savings dissipate and had great difficulty finding reasonable jobs in order to survive. Some brothers were rewarded by their Kingdom Hall by being assigned as servants in their local congregation - but many also found the preaching work in strange places to be quite stressful. Many couldn't deal with it and eventually returned to their hometowns to try to pick up where they left off.

Being a JW wasn't much fun after that - at least nothing like it was in the late 1940s to early 1960s. There was no longer any joy in Watchtowerland. Many of my former acquaintances experienced major mental and physical problems that could be directly tied to the new policies that the Society embraced and enforced. Shunning, lots of shunning - unlike anything we'd seen before.

JV

40

DF’d or DA???

by DATA-DOG in

so, i think i’m going to be df’d, but elders are out of town and no decision has been officially reached.

what would happen if i sent a certified overnight letter and said that i was going to disassociate before they have their meeting??.

i know the two conditions are similar, but i’m just curious... dd.

Juan Viejo2

"Road to nowhere" has it right. Just disappear. Walk away. Don't answer their calls. Don't return their mail. If they come to your home and you meet them at the door, just tell them you can't talk because you do not feel well. Don't expand on anything. Just go. Don't look back. Toss all of your collections of old magazines and books in the recycle bin. Don't watch JW videos or apostate videos for at least 6 months. Spend your spare time watching relaxing shows and documentaries on TV. Read a lot of recent best sellers and listen to your favorite music. If you are approached by a JW acquaintance politely tell them that you are not in the mood to talk to them. Clear your head. Do something that is relaxing and fun and just let your brain and body (and bank account) rest and catch up.

At the same time, remember that leaving the JWs is like leaving alcohol or drugs. JW related thoughts will linger in your head for months and create some stress. You will get through all of that soon enough. Withdrawal symptoms are your body's way of easing you down slowly. If you want to have a little mental abuse in your life, watch Trump discussions on your TV station. You can not help but slowly clear your head. Watch some good nature documentaries on cable TV. You get a whole new concept of reality watching nature and geology in action. Suddenly things will clear up. One day you will have a brief pang of regret and give it all a second thought - that's normal. But those feeling will pass when you think back about the boredom and repetition of the meetings, the inane 3rd grade reading level articles in the magazines and on JW.org. Avoid calling or talking to any of your old JW friends. They aren't interested in helping you resolve your issues - they want to shame you into returning. That's their only goal. In real life, other JWs don't give a fart about your reasons for leaving. They don't care about your feelings or motivations. They only want to shame you into returning to the cult.

Within a few months you will really begin to enjoy the freedom and clarity of thought. Yes, you may miss some of your old JW friends - but give it time and you will soon be able to recognize which of those "friends" were fond of you because they really liked you, enjoyed your company and cared about you. The rest will avoid you and try to shame you into returning so they can shame you some more.

Think FREEDOM of your mind, body, finances, and time. Those will be your rewards by leaving the cult.

JV

23

Why the meetings are boring and uninspiring

by UnshackleTheChains in

each individual may have their own views as to why they feel the meetings are boring and uninspiring.

in my case i find the midweek meeting so, because of the constant emphasis on pitching watchtower literature.

its just monotonous and one big yawn.. i watch other christian faiths where they open up a chapter of the bible and discuss it's contents.

Juan Viejo2

Lisa Rose, A recent video on YouTube showed a gentleman that managed to get assigned as a fill-in speaker at a remote KHall. It turned out that he took the subject assigned and modified it in a truly honest and expository way. It took the other elders in the KH a few minutes to realize that he was not delivering a WT prepared talk. But when they did they shut him down pretty quick.

What I found interesting was that as you watch the audience, they somehow knew something was wrong. Even though he was speaking the truth, it was clear that it wasn't Watchtower "truth" - and soon the elders were up and trying to get him off the stage and out the door. But if you listen to what he said, it was not profane, accusatory, or supportive of any other religion. But it clearly was not from the Watchtower.

That fellow will be on my heroes list for quite a while. His brave move proved his point very clearly.

https://youtu.be/hLgwyfhtIHM

J Viejo

23

Were visits to the library an important part of your childhood?

by compound complex in

jw
friends

greetings, fellow bibliophiles:.

i remember how sad i was, as a little child, when our beloved carnegie library was razed (unsafe, structurally).

the same tragedy occurred when we moved to a new town and that similar architectural treasure was demolished to put up a new and gleaming building of steel and glass.

Juan Viejo2

Raised in Riverside, California in the 1950s and 60s, I regularly visited the downtown library (also originally financed by a Carnegie grant). The old library was a classic in every way and was located between the historic Mission Inn and the Riverside Community Auditorium (a site for most annual JW circuit assemblies for that area).

I got my love of books from my mother. My dad was not a reader, nor were any of my relatives on his side of the family. Besides my mother, my aunt "Jerrie" (Geraldine), who was not a witness, but perhaps the smartest member of my family. Jerrie would sit down with a cup of coffee and the New York Times daily crosswords and blitz through them all before her coffee got cold. I loved when we visited her. I asked her how she became so proficient in words and puzzles. "Went to the library almost every day. Looked up something new in the dictionary or encyclopedia before I went to bed every night. It's easy if you just stay on top of learning something new and looking up what you don't know."

While far from being as skilled with crosswords as my aunt was, I still remember many facts that I learned while visiting the library as a child and many of them have stayed with me throughout my life. Although I have owned a copy of "The Two Babylons" by Hislop since I was 15 or 16 years old, I still refer to it every so often (more for entertainment than for historic facts), I see that there are copies still on Amazon.com. Most of it has been discredited or challenged, it's still a good read for entertainment. And my first exposure to it was the local library.

That's why I strongly suggest that everyone living in medium to large cities continue to visit their local libraries. Some cities without libraries have state universities nearby that will sometimes offer access to local citizens.

I definitely count my love of books and history to my being allowed by my parents to read anything I wanted and to go to the library anytime. I am fortunate to live in my state's capital city and am just 50 miles from Portland, also home to some excellent libraries and bookstores to go rummage through.

Carnegie was not a saint by any means, but like a lot of multi-millionaires of his time, he did finance and fund some projects that have survived to our day. If you have one in your area go visit it and pat the door on the way in as you whisper "Thanks, Andy, for the very nice gift to us all."

JV